EDID Editor

Hi all,
We have implemented the first version of the EDID editor for the Vanity^PRO. It will allow the user to change certain default EDID parameters - both audio and video. On the audio side there will be all standard speaker configurations available, which will be useful specifically for the Stereo version of the Vanity^PRO to prioritize stereo mix playback at the source.
The video parameters will include at least two resolutions - FHD and 4k - and all standard refresh rates up to 60Hz. This should enable the VanityPRO to be used with HDMI splitters and switchers to report the correct video capabilities to the source without anything connected to the TX port. See the screenshot below.



If you have any suggestions for other parameters to be adjustable, please feel free to share here!
Hopefully this feature will be released soon in the firmware V5.

Best Regards,
Pavel

I am using the 3840X2160p at 60Hz, and 7.1 out to get my set up with Roon and Dirac Live working properly. Windows after configuration, Dirac Live and Roon now see the VanityPro as an eight-channel device. The EDID editor works well.

Hi, Pavel. I'm still slowly debugging. I wish I had an HDMI analysis tool that reads and copies EDID. Maybe I'll have to buy one because I cannot say 100% for sure, but based on behavior, it seems that in the EDID editor in firmware version 5.1, Vanity Pro is NOT putting out the 3840 resolution. My Apple TV still thinks the TV it's connected to is a 1920 x 1080 device. Can you please check... in case there is interaction, I have the Vanity set to 3840 and I've tried all the frame rates. I've kept the speaker setup as 7.1.

The Apple TV recognizes the EDID coming from the Vanity as 7.1 surround and permits the user to use Apple's built in surround/Atmos decoder and output linear PCM. But as I said, I cannot get the Apple TV to output 4k video even though the Vanity is set to 4k. If you can get an Apple TV unit to test with the Vanity it would be fabulous!

Thanks.

Bob

Hi Bob,
Let me help you with debugging.
Do you have any HDMI splitter or multiplexer between the AppleTV and the VanityPRO? If so, please connect it directly to see if the splitter messes up with the EDID.
The EDID editor in the VanityPRO plays a role only of there is nothing connected to the HDMI OUT port. This way the editor can alter the internal video EDID data. If there is a TV or screen connected to the HDMI OUT port, the internal editor settings have no effect and video EDID is passed through from the HDMI OUT port.
In case of more complicated HDMI chain with splitters or muxes, it is sometimes useful to plug the VanityPRO into a PC or another device that would allow you to see the reported EDID. We have tested the EDID editor with multiple HDMI sources for compatibility including AppleTV, so I guess it is something specific to your setup. If you share more details how you have everything connected we might be able to help more.
Best Regards,
Pavel

bobkatz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi, Pavel. I'm still slowly debugging. I wish I
> had an HDMI analysis tool that reads and copies
> EDID. Maybe I'll have to buy one because I cannot
> say 100% for sure, but based on behavior, it seems
> that in the EDID editor in firmware version 5.1,
> Vanity Pro is NOT putting out the 3840 resolution.
> My Apple TV still thinks the TV it's connected to
> is a 1920 x 1080 device. Can you please check...
> in case there is interaction, I have the Vanity
> set to 3840 and I've tried all the frame rates.
> I've kept the speaker setup as 7.1.
>
> The Apple TV recognizes the EDID coming from the
> Vanity as 7.1 surround and permits the user to use
> Apple's built in surround/Atmos decoder and output
> linear PCM. But as I said, I cannot get the Apple
> TV to output 4k video even though the Vanity is
> set to 4k. If you can get an Apple TV unit to test
> with the Vanity it would be fabulous!
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bob
That's the exact issue I am having. I am using a Samsung TV. I have a PC directly connected to the TV, the only thing. When the Vanity Pro is in the chain, the resolution is limited to 1920x1080. It is not working as Audio Praise describes. It needs to be fixed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2023 07:17PM by Karl W..

Dear Karl: I eventually solved the problem. You have to have good cables, make sure they are high bandwidth, 4k UHD cables.

After you replace the cables, then it's a new ball game. At that point I was able to send 4k out of Apple TV. HOWEVER, you are correct, the EDID from the Vanity is not sufficient. Even if it tells the source (e.g. Apple TV) that it's 4k, what about Dolby Vision? Vanity EDID menu does not include Dolby vision as an option.

I was able to solve that with a Simplified (brand) matrix switch. The matrix switch has full EDID management.

So, then, in several steps:

1) I was then able to extract the EDID from my Dolby-vision-capable TV using an EDID reading tool. I forget the name for this post but if you can't find one I'll look up what I used and report it here

2) The next thing is to RETAIN the video capabilities of your TV and modify the audio. I was able to modify the AUDIO capabilities of the EDID to include 8 channel linear PCM and save that as a new EDID. Using a free EDID editor. Again, I don't have the name of that editor in front of me right now but if you can't find one I'll look up what I used and report it here

3) I saved the edited EDID to a file.

4) I then loaded that modified EDID into the Simplified Matrix switch. Now, Apple TV and also my Mac think they are talking to a Dolby-vision-capable 4k TV with linear PCM audio. The Matrix switch simultaneously feeds video off to the TV and audio to the Vanity.

Hope this helps.

Gentlemen,
We will of course look into this again. In the VanityPRO the HDMI pass through just copies video part of the EDID from TX port to RX port (from TV back to PC/Player/streamer) and adds its own audio part of EDID. We plan to expand the EDID editor functionality in the next firmware release with stereo/multichannel speaker configurations and selectable LPCM/DSD/bitstream support to fine tweak the audio capabilities to match those of the signal source. Please keep in mind that the video resolution setting is applicable as default video capability only when nothing is connected to the TX port and does not apply in your scenario with a TV/screen connected. We will retest and validate the video EDID pass through once again and report back. As Bob mentioned, one needs decent quality cables for 4k UHD.
Regards,
Pavel

Bob your are right! I received a new HDMI cable that I testing for another company. It solved all my issues. Everything is working perfectly.

Hi AP from Bob Katz. My routing has totally changed here. And I am concerned about future revisions of the Vanity EDID editor.

I am back to using the video output of the Vanity Pro to feed my video monitor.

Previously the route was: Video source (e.g. 4k BluRay Player) to Matrix Switch input. Matrix switch output A to TV. Matrix switch output B to Vanity HDMI In. Vanity HDMI out VACANT.

Then I discovered that sources that support Dolby Vision (DV) were not able to pass through this system to the TV AND also support 7.1 audio for some reason. My assistant told me he researched that and found with HDMI revision ? this combination was not possible, not enough bandwidth. I am not sure if that is the case, but in any case we were not able to create an EDID for the matrix switch that would pass 8 channels of audio AND support DV.

Then I split the HDMI outputs of my Blu Ray player so the video out fed the matrix switch and the audio out fed the Vanity in directly. Suddenly I got Dolby Vision AND 7.1 audio. But then I could not switch sources to the Vanity. And then I did not have enough inputs in the matrix switch to support separate audio and video sources AND my four sources.

OK, then as a last resort, I decided to return to this route, utilizing the Vanity HDMI output once again to feed the TV:

All sources go into the matrix switch
Video out of the matrix switch goes into the Vanity
Vanity out goes to the TV
Matrix switch EDID mode set to feed EDID back to the sources from the Vanity. In other words, the sources get their EDID information from the Vanity.

And lo and behold!!! Everything worked:The sources put out 8 channel audio AND DV. This means that the sources are detecting a proper video EDID coming BACK from the TV through the Vanity and through the matrix switch AND a proper audio EDID from the Vanity itself.

I conclude that the Vanity Video EDID setting in the latest firmware is a little confusing, or not working. And for me this is a good thing. The way the Vanity seems to be working is its Video ID comes from its output. And its audio ID is set by the screen settings. I confirm by using an application called "Monitor info" that this is true: To repeat: Vanity sends an EDID consisting of a video id from its HDMI output and an audio ID from its front panel screen. I wonder if you have Vanity set up so that if an HDMI output is connected, its Video EDID overrides the front panel settings. This is the confusing part as this is not indicated on your LCD screen or in the manual??? I would like to suggest that you continue to work this way, send the VIDEO portion of the HDMI output back to the source, and configure the audio portion on your LCD screen. Otherwise, complex sources such as HDR and DV would be very hard to support.


If you need a block diagram let me know (send me an email) and I'll draw it if you need to better understand this routing.


The reason is that I was unable to create a situation with my Matrix switch that would pass Dolby Vision AND 7.1 audio

Using the application MonInfo I can confirm that the EDID select screen in the latest firmware HDMI 35A1, audio 5.2.1 is NOT functional. And for me this is a good thing! Because as I said in my previous post, the EDID is a combination of a Video EDID passthrough from the Vanity HDMI output and audio setting permanently as 8 channel LPCM-capable.

In other words, REGARDLESS OF THE SETTING OF THE EDID SCREEN, Vanity is telling the source that it is 8 channel LPCM-capable and that its video capability is that of the TV connected to its HDMI output. The "multichannel/stereo" and number of channels option does not seem to have any effect on its EDID.

(The EDID also contains 1 bit, SACD information but I'm not playing SACDs so I haven't investigated that)

So, please be careful in the next revision: Once you get the EDID setup screen to work, PLEASE ensure that IF the HDMI OUTPUT is connected, it will OVERRIDE the video settings on the Vanity's LCD screen. OR, include an OVERRIDE option in the Vanity EDID menu. In other words, Vanity will be able to choose some video settings OR choose to override them with the Video EDID from its HDMI output. Thanks.

Hi Bob, thanks for your comprehensive report.
You are right in your observation that with a HDMI sink connected to the HDMI output port of the VanityPRO the EDID reported back to the source is a combination of the audio capabilities of the VanityPRO and video capabilities of the sink. Although it is functionally logical, it is not explicitly mentioned in the manual. Also, the video settings in the EDID editor apply only when there is nothing connected to the HDMI output port.
It would be useful to find out, why you don't seem to be able to see the EDID changes from the editor. We use either the same or similar tool for EDID readback and below you can find three examples of the EDID setting screen with corresponding audio capabilities readback.
1.

2.

3.


Again, this might our fault not mentioning it explicitly in the manual, that after changing any setting in the EDID editor, the HDMI path needs to be re-initialized, which is can be achieved by simply letting the VanityPRO to go through the stand-by cycle (off and on). This would update all the new variables in the HDMI subsystem and force the new EDID to be sent to the HDMI source. Can you please try that?

We will update the manual with the missing details. Thank you for pointing those out and sorry for the confusion! Al of course it would be great to see the block diagram of your studio setup.

Best Regards,
Pavel



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2024 11:48PM by AP.

Dear Pavel: I actually didn't check the EDID produced by the Vanity with the Moninfo tool. My post was meant to indicate that you would never be able to provide all the possible settings (including Dolby Vision) that a user might want with the EDID setting, so please keep it up that you "steal" the video EDID from the monitor if it's plugged in.

The one thing I did try was to change your audio EDID between stereo and multichannel, and I don't think I got any changes from my Blu Ray player, so I concluded that your audio EDID was not working. But it could have been some other problem, like the Blu Ray player ignoring one of the fields in the EDID, who knows.
-------

However, there is one audio EDID setting I would like to try and it is very difficult for me to create a custom EDID with Dolby vision included, so it would be nice if you include a 10 channel option that I could try. Let me explain:

Maybe I can fool the Apple TV 4k to put out 7.1 channels (no height channels) if the EDID says the receiver has 10 channels. In that case the first 8 channels would be the lower channels without the height. It might be worth a try.

Hi Bob,
You are right, the is no way we can cover all possible scenarios and please everyone. The EDID editor is in the VanityPRO for two reasons. One is to set the correct audio capabilities depending on the installed output module, and second to give the user some options of the default video EDID in case there is nothing plugged into the HDMI TX port. Sometimes when people use simple signal splitters without any EDID management capabilities the VanityPRO might provide video EDID for the whole chain.
As mentioned above, for any change of the EDID options the HDMI chain needs to reinitialize with the new values, so the units should be put through a standby cycle.
It sounds like you cannot get 8 channels from the AppleTV. Does your Blu-ray player recognize the channel count correctly? Also, can you verify that that the source content actually has 7.1 audio option available? I read somewhere, that newer films in Atmos might not have 7.1 PCM track available and the next available fallback option is 5.1 and 2.0.
Regards,
Pavel

Yeah, looks like Apple TV only outputs 5.1 in linear PCM if the EDID just asks for linear PCM. If the receiver can decode Atmos it will provide a proper EDID and then ATV will output Atmos. At that point the lower 8 channels can be in linear PCM ---these are downmixed from Atmos, and sent with MAT metadata. I'm not totally sure what would happen if Vanity provided an indication that it has an Atmos decoder.... it might make ATV output 8 linear channels in the right combination.

I'm not sure what EDID you would have to give the ATV to accomplish that. Apple ALWAYS re-encodes, it has no bitstream option. But it would be interesting if we can find the right EDID to test A[[;e wotj/

The Blu ray definitely recognizes the channel count in Vanity and can output 8 channels so I get a full 7.1 channels from the Blu Ray player in lossless Dolby Tru HD.

As far as newer films go, I believe Atmost will automatically downmix to whatever the destination format requires. There is no "discrete" PCM linear track in Atmos. It's always encoded. The producer has to give the Atmos encoder the downmix coordinates desired. I would have to ask my experts what happens if the producer does not supply downmix coordinates for a 7.1 downmix.

Hi Bob,
Do I understand correctly that you imply AppleTV has Atmos decoder and if LPCM output is required it can decode Atmos and downmix to desired speaker configuration, provided the downmix details (coordinates) are provided? One cannot really tell from the specifications. Even if Atmos is "supported" it does not necessarily mean that it can be decoded and rendered into LPCM. Same for many other streamers and consoles.
Thanks,
Pavel

Yes, Apple TV has a built in Atmos Decoder. It is, in fact an Atmost transcoder because Apple does not have a bitstream option. So the only two choices are: Convert to 5.1 Linear PCM, OR convert to 5.1 AC3.

"5.1" is not explicitly mentioned in the Apple menu when you choose to convert to linear pcm, but my tests and others tests show that Apple limits their decoding (or more correctly "transcoding") to 6 channels.

I have not confirmed that the downmix details in the metadata from the Vanity are properly read or read at all. I think Apple defaults to 5.1 regardless of the downmix coordinates it may see in the metadata.

Hi Bob,
That is useful to know, thanks. I guess the options available in the AppleTV (or their lack) are optimized for mainstream equipment and mainstream user and we have to work with what we have
Best Regards,
Pavel